It’s been pointed out to me recently that an awesome lady by the name of Samantha Swords was kind enough to give my previous work a shout-out and then rebut a few of my points in the last part of this article.

(Incidentally, if you haven’t heard of her, you should. Among other things, she’s the 2013 longsword champion at the Harcourt Park World Invitational Jousting Tournament.)

Anyways, got a break in work, so I’ll take the chance to respond as best I can.

Sam says,

“Rashes are usually measured in days, not decades.”

I have no idea what I was going for when I said “Rash.” I was definitely looking for a plural noun of some sort. Damn you autocorrect, maybe? I don’t even know what a collective noun would be for multiple armored lady fighters. A Fury?

“A Fury of armored women strode onto the field.”

Works for me. Anyways…

Sam Says,

“I understand Jay’s point, it’s relatively a larger group of reasonably-attired women on film than the female-fighter-in-media cliche suggests.
Yay for us having role models! I want to be clear that it’s still not *nearly* enough.

The fact Jay calls it a “relative non issue” should show just how bad the situation really is for want of strong, capable, feminine, not-overly-sexualised female role models.”

Damn right it’s not enough. It’s an improvement over history, that’s for sure. And a thankfully growing trend. Without going into several pages on the history of women in action cinema, I’ll just leave it by saying there’s a LOT of catching up to do, despite serious progress.

“Relative non-issue” was probably a poor choice of words. Seeing in the 2010′s multiple well-armored female fighters in a single year on the big screen is something we never would have seen just a few decades ago. (And it’s a damn sight better to what I’ve glanced at in the comic book and video game industries).

But significant improvements don’t mean the issue doesn’t still exist. I concede the point.

Sam Says,

“Any lady who has trained wearing the plastic version of the Double Domes of Wonder should be able to confirm the design isn’t suited to deflect thrusting weapons, which rules out usefulness for practicing historically-accurate fencing styles.”

Not a lady, haven’t worn it, but I agree, if deflection is a key component of the armor style you’re looking for, I wouldn’t go with Double Domes of Wonder either.
(I do like the term though.)

Previously, I said,

“Surprisingly, this is not that big a deal. One reason is that inside shots are rare and easy to defend. Most attacks against an armored opponent come from the outside, and often at an angle.”

Then Sam Says,

“I don’t know what Jay is talking about, but it’s not Western or Historical European Martial Arts. Possibly SCA heavy fighting, or medieval reenactment, or HEMA synthetic longsword competitions, or Battle of Nations, or something that doesn’t involve working from the bind?”

None of the above, actually. I’m a fight choreographer and a stunty. All of my work with a sword is fake fakeity fake fake fake. Having a battle make tactical and martial sense is about third on my priority list of any given work, after “keeping my people out of the hospital,” and “telling the story well.”

That said, (And this is the part where I may upset people), I consider there to be a big difference between Western/Historical European Martial Arts and Western/Historical European Combat. To me, actual sword-on-sword combat is something nobody alive today knows for sure. There’s the occasional sword-related assault or murder, but sword-on-sword combat in the truest sense of the term no longer exists today.

What does exist is W/HEMA and the like, which are sports wrapped around a series of educated guesses and sprinkled with concessions to the safety of the participants. They can tell us a great deal about W/HE Combat, but will always (thankfully) fall short of reality.

(I could write a book alone on the “Is it real?” debate in regards to swords and swordplay, but that’s for another tangent and even I can only digress so much).

As a parallel, I’ll posit this:

Quite a few people out there can tell you what fighting a real gunbattle is like. Thanks to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, I’m one of them. In recent years, a trend that popped up for training professional trigger pullers is a technology called simunition. Essentially, it turns duty weapons into high-tech gunpowder-propelled paintball weapons. Training scenarios are set up (including antagonists), and the shooters are sent through the scenario in real-time, reacting and shooting as they would in a real gunbattle.

Do a lot of real-world shooting and modern combat techniques come into play during these scenarios? Absolutely.

But something is always held back. In a dozen tiny ways, no training scenario yet designed truly replicates what one has to see and do in an actual combat. It’s subtle in a lot of ways, but more than enough to make differences. It’s a highly specific martial tool. But it’s not combat.

When I claimed a center thrust to be a stupid move, I spoke of what I would deduce would be in a combat situation, not a martial arts move. Not knowing the specifics of Sam’s fighting style, I’ll concede it’s entirely possible to be a very wise move within those confines. It’s just not something I’d use with that type of weapon, against that type of armor, if my life was on the line.

…Unless of course I was up to something and a centerline thrust was part of it, but I’m sneaky that way.

Anyways, my thanks to Ms. Swords, both for the shoutout and rebuttal.

Certa Bonum Certamen,

~Jay

So, there’s been a lot of talk over the nets of late on something close to both my heart and my workbench, female armor.

There’s the one-tumblr crusade against the chainmail bikini called Women fighters in reasonable armor.

And the even more popular “Women’s armor sucks”

In case most of you haven’t noticed, I’m a guy. But since I A) make women’s (and men’s) armor as a side business, B) have worn armor in both actual wars and in choreographed fight sequences, I figure I have enough cred to add my $.02 to the discussion.

I’ll start off by admitting openly that I love women’s fantasy armor from an aesthetic perspective. If I didn’t, I probably wouldn’t go into the pain-in-the-ass effort of making it. And I’ll also admit that, upon seeing Return of the Jedi in theaters, leia’s metal bikini single-handedly drop-kicked me out of the cooties stage at the tender age of five.

That said, having married a lady Barbarian who hits people with plumbing supplies in the woods on a regular basis, and some of my nearest and dearest being stuntwomen, I have a vested interest in seeing the armor that I make hold up to snuff. I’ve made works going from a B cup to an I (yes, I. It’s not a typo). I have yet to work in boobplate, but I have made chain and scale.

For the lady Barbarian, I even made a leather curiasse designed to be worn with one of her chain tops as a composite piece.

There appears to be two big points (shut up, peanut gallery!) of contention, so I shall answer them separately: the chainmail bikini and boobplate.

The chainmail bikini is a staple of sword-and-sorcery fantasy convention, and was designed as pure fanservice from the ground up.

The reasons for it don’t really exist in early examples, mostly because it never needed justification. It was there for fanservice and everyone knew it.

After a while the big point that comes up (usually on the spur of the moment from some drooling fanboy who is, shock of shockers, actually asked why the young lady in question isn’t wearing something more *ahem* “substantial,”) the usual excuse is “less protection equals more mobility.”

And the crazy thing is, that’s partially a legitimate excuse. It happens (in much less exciting form) in Afghanistan today, when the merits of the OTV vest vs. plate carriers are debated.

When I think of the possible tactical uses for this sort of thing, what comes to mind is this:

The Retiarius gladiator. The guy’s got one arm armored and a loincloth. That’s it. And they face off against the Secutor, who’s much more heavily armored, but slower.

Now take a look at Sonja here.

Of course, if we’re going to go with the “sacrifice protection for mobility” argument, you may claim that you might as well go naked. Which is entirely possible, and even has precedent. The Ancient Greek language has a term for this, “gymnos,” which literally means “naked,” but holds connotations relating to exercise and speed. Yes, it’s where we get the word “gymnasium.” Ponder that the next time you’re bitching about what other people wear when they lift.

However, this poses the practical problem of running afoul of public nudity laws in between adventures, not to mention where to put your keys. Oh, and content creators may have some complaining editorial types. Chainmail bikinis let you go down to the minimum possible coverage while keeping the local public decency authorities off your back. And if you’re wearing that little, you might as well armor it up. In the unlikely event that someone did tag Sonja in the boob, she’s at least got a shot at it sliding off the scales.

Then there’s the distraction factor (which I remember at least one comic having Sonja claim it helped). Hell, if you keep it shiny, a little tassel-twirling technique can have you bouncing sunlight in an opponent’s face with minimal effort.

Am I reaching? Maybe. Doesn’t mean I’m wrong. If you’re going to go for the bikini, just have some tactical sense in mind as well as aesthetic sense is all I’m really asking.

Now we get into boobplate. Never made it personally, but I’ve worn plenty of guyplate (pecplate?) between historical plate armor and modern body armor vests, so I can speak with some distinction on this.

Ironically, boobplate has been a relative non-issue in live performance, looking at the rash of armored women over the last few decades.

I’m not much of a comic book or video game guy, so I can only assume it gets to be more of an issue over there.

But as an armorer, I take a certain amount of umbrage at some recent posts on the topic.

Here’s “An armorer’s take on boobplate”

And here’s the boobplate in question:

I’ll admit right now that I don’t know Mr. Jabberwock, and I don’t know what he makes armor for (the article only explains, “I make actual armor that people wear when they hit each other with swords.” I’m guessing some sort of WMA, but can’t make any real calls one way or another).

The two big objections (I said shut up, peanut gallery!), seem to be:

- That blows to the torso will fall into the center of the chest by sliding along the inside of the breast cups, and

- That a strong enough blow or a forward fall will crack the sternum.

“I worry constantly that she’s going to fall hard and it will crack her sternum, even with the padding. Note also that it seems almost perfectly designed to guide sword points and arrows into her heart. They still have to penetrate the armor but, honestly, that’s a design flaw.”

Excuse me, what the fuck?

So she trips and falls, and lands boob-first. Obviously, the breast cups aren’t going to compress or absorb. This transfers the force to the sternum through the padding…. And to the entire rib cage, in the case of this piece, which results in spreading the force throughout the torso. You know, the exact same thing that an unarmored fall would do? Or even a fall in a non-boobed plate would do?

But no, it’s “oh me, oh my, she’ll fall and hurt herself.” Does this sound insulting to anyone else?

For a guy who makes women’s armor, he doesn’t seem to think outside the boob too much.

As far as guiding blows inside, it might. But it’s unlikely. Attacks landing on the outside line will slide off the outside line, not inside.

If an attack comes inboard from the nipples, then for the same reasons it probably will slide down into the crease between the cups. So, an attack that comes to the inside line makes an impact.

Surprisingly, this is not that big a deal. One reason is that inside shots are rare and easy to defend. Most attacks against an armored opponent come from the outside, and often at an angle

Another reason is that a penetrating thrust to the center of a plate-armored torso is a stupid move, because few medieval weapons could actually penetrate it. A warhammer? Maybe. A sword? Not happening.

So, why boobplate and not the “bind-and-stuff-in-men’s armor” popularized by Joan, Brienne, and others above?

Because (holy shit!) women have, in general, a wider range of torso shapes than guys do. Armor has, from the dawn of time, been designed for men almost exclusively. A vest made of tough stuff does a pretty good job of protecting the vitals on a guy, with minimal adjustment for sizes without having to do trig. Guy’s armor often has (although hasn’t always) been a case of “adjust various rectangles as needed.”

Women add more curves to the mix, to varying degrees. And in some cases it’s easier (certainly less expensive in-universe, given what it takes to make custom armor in that era/the fantasy equivalent) to go the bind-and-stuff route. Apparently this was the worthwhile case with Joan, and there’s a couple of canon paragraphs about Brienne of Tarth’s suitability for wearing a man’s armor.

But for some, that ain’t an option. I have one friend with a 39″ bust and 30″ ribs. Binding ain’t gonna work because, in her words, “all that has to go somewhere.” Simply padding out the gambeson with additional padding to make it fit a guy’s armor is equally ridiculous (how ridiculous? Take 2 beer cans and put them end-to-end. From where the first can becomes it’s widest to the other end is about 9″. That’s how much padding would be needed, were anyone crazy enough to try that method).

If I was faced with that sort of challenge, I’d probably make a solid frontal arc instead of individual cups, and empire waist the gambeson while I was at it. But that’s just me.

Like the chainmail bikini, there’s nothing inherently wrong with it so long as it makes sense in universe.

Which means there are good ways to do boobplate…

…aaand some not so good ways.

~Jay

P.S. due credit and thanks must go to my colleague and friend Rob Dehoff, for his tactical input in an earlier discussion that led to this article.